Have you ever tried to time something and kept coming up with different times? I have a wrist stopwatch and time everything. I've timed how long it takes to get from one town to another, how fast it takes to run a lap, how long it takes to swim a lap, even down to how long it takes for me to shave. Those are just for fun and I find it interesting. When you are dealing in a sport and dealing with tens of thousands of dollars, for winning an event or a million dollars for winning a title, you can't time something for fun. The PBR is using stopwatches to time an 8 second ride and that time has to be accurate, or it can cost a rider some hard earned money. Yes, they are using the same method to time rides that have been used for decades, while other sports have improved their ability to time their events.
There are four judges that score rides and all four judges have a stopwatch. Then you have a replay judge and he has a stopwatch as well. The judge that is closest to the riders, on the chutes, is the judge that controls the 8 second arena clock. He starts the clock when the bull breaks the plane of the chute. The other three judges start their stopwatches as well, even though they do not have the best position as to when the bull breaks the plane. If after a ride, the clock shows 8 seconds, a rider gets a score. Right? Wrong. If one of the other three judges believe that the rider has not made the 8 seconds -by looking at his stopwatch - he can call for a review of time. He can call for a review of any other infraction, but for the sake of this article, I am staying on point as to time only. Then the replay judge will run the ride in "real time" and uses his stopwatch. If he comes up with 8 or more seconds, the rider gets a score, if not, the rider does not get a score. Also, if after a ride, the arena clock does not show 8 seconds, such as 7.7 seconds, the rider can push the challenge button and ask the replay judge to review the ride, using his stopwatch. If the replay judge says he made the 8, he gets a score, if not, then the rider will pay a $500 penalty for challenging the time. To me, there seems to be several problems with this system.
First, many sports have gone away from using stopwatches as a form of timing events, because they are not accurate, due to human reactions. If you are timing a runner on a 40 yard dash, the time has been shown to be an average .24 seconds off, by using a stopwatch (to run a 40 yard dash takes between 4.3 to 5.5 seconds). This is due to the reaction time that it takes to push the stopwatch button. Second, people have different reaction times. One person, with a slightly slower reaction time, will have a different time than another person. Third, many people use their thumb to push the stopwatch, when research shows that your index finger has the quickest reaction time of all the fingers. Therefore, many people using stopwatches are using the wrong finger to push the button. In bull riding, it is also up to each judge and then the replay judge as to when the bull crosses the plane of the chute. That difference of "opinion" can cost a guy a title.
In swimming, they have an automatic timer, then a person that pushes an electronic keypad, then a person that times with a stopwatch. The stopwatch is not the primary timing source, as a matter of fact, it is the back up to the back up. I looked into other events, and I could not find one sport, that says they are growing and a major sport in the US, that uses a stopwatch to time the event. Why is the PBR still using such an archaic way to determine who wins and loses, in regards to timing a ride?
What is the solution? First off, any ride that is 7.7 or higher, the rider would be able to challenge the time, without fear of a fine. Since the stopwatch is not accurate (due to human error), why should the rider pay the penalty. I have seen guys that were at 7.8 or even 7.9 that did not challenge the time simply because they did not have the $500 to lose, if the challenge was not upheld. Second, if the ride goes to the replay judge, then instead of a stopwatch, he would use the digital feed to look at the ride. When you are looking at a digital feed, there is a digital timer, usually at the top right of the screen. The replay judge could start the ride, on his screen, frame by frame and see where the bull breaks the plain of the chute. At that time, note the time on the digital screen. Continue the ride, slow it down, frame by frame as the rider is bucking off or losing his rope, then stop it at exact frame. When this occurs note the time on the digital timer. This tells you the time of the ride. Since you can go frame by frame, and the digital timer is usually in hundredths or sometimes in thousandths of seconds, the replay will be more accurate than using a stopwatch. This will cost money to set up and run, but considering the PBR publicizes the fact that they just surpassed the $100 million mark in payouts and they are one of the fastest growing sports, the money will be well spent. There is no fool proof system, but there are better ways to time the rides.
If you want to even be close to the same level (which the PBR is many levels down) to the big boys, you have to spend money to legitimize your sport and the timing system used. By the way, what ever happened to the Hyper-Mo camera? Will we see it during the finals? Was it too expensive to use every event? This is what I am talking about, other major sports have many new gadgets that help the fan enjoy the sport and the PBR has to spend the money to up date and stay up with and promote their sport.
In Pueblo, McKennon Wimberly lost a score, because one judge challenged the time, after an 8 second ride. This was not the main judge starting the arena clock, but one of the other judges. His time after the replay judge looked at it and timed it, with the inaccurate stopwatch, was 7.94 seconds. That is a difference of only .06 seconds or 6 one hundredths of a second. Remember, I said before that due to reaction times, the time can be off, on average, by .24 seconds. McKennon lost the score and lost points and money for that round. In the same event, Shane Proctor was timed at 7.9. He challenged the time, and the replay judge said the ride was 8.36. Now how can you be off by .4 seconds and call the way the time is done "accurate". A challenge by a judge several weeks before cost Sean Willingham a ride as well. He made the 8 seconds, a judge challenged it, then the replay judge said he did not make the 8. How come I have not seen any judges challenge the time, when a rider is less than 8 seconds? Why only if the rider is more than 8? Due to the inaccuracy of the stopwatches and the human reaction time and due to the fact that the other judges can't see as well as the judge on top of the chute, in regards to when the bull breaks the plane of the chute, if the clock shows 8, the other judges should not be allowed to challenge the time. What do you think?
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Nothing to argue with here. The PBR is going to have to upgrade this system in order to continue to grow. I commented on McKennon's situation in the weekly power rankings on my blog as well. If he misses out on the bonus rides in the last five events because of that decision, it is going to be very bad for the PBR.
ReplyDeleteYou have made a very good case here, point by point. Good post.
ReplyDeleteA couple inaccuracies in your article.
ReplyDelete1) The 8 second clock behind the chutes is the clock of record for all rides.
2) BOTH back judges can start and stop the clock. The judge on the side of the rider that is up will start it.
3) The stop watches are there as back-up in the event of scoreboard failure. Also, it gives the side judges the opportunity to check time if they see a slap or other infraction as they watch the ride. If they have their eyes on the ride they can't watch the main clock. Many if not most of the judge reviews happen when one of the side judges sees a slap before buzzer and the back judge was not in a position to see it and stop the clock.
4) Judges have called for a review on the ride at a less than 8 second master clock. Generally though the riders are already hitting the button to challenge.
Also,
Out of curiosity who are the "Big Boys" with the timing system that would work in this application?
I think 4 sets of eyes with the ability to contest the main clock on both sides is very fair and balanced.
You've seen a rider not hit the button because he couldn't afford the $500? If a rider thinks he made the 8 he hits it. The $500 makes no difference to them. If you watch them closely there's lots of people around them usually telling them whether they made 8.
The Hyper-Mo was used that week in Vegas as a Demo by the owners of the Hyper-Mo company. Yes it's expensive and that weekend was a freebie. The PBR is working VERY hard getting new tech in the hands of the production team. You have a very high end show to watch, especially compared with the other series out there namely CBR and PRCA. The quality of production in the PBR is probably 3 to 4 times more expensive than the other two.
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ReplyDeleteTodd, thanks for leaving a comment. Regarding the spelling of plain/plane. I will correct that, when I started this blog site, I stated that my spelling is not the best.
ReplyDeleteRegarding your response. First, yes I know that the judge that is closest to the rider, which can be on either side, starts the clock. That's why I said that the judge closest to the rider, I just didn't state that it could be on either side. Second, the clock behind the chute is the "official" time, unless another judge disagrees or the rider challenges it. Then the replay judge's time becomes the "offical" time. So the arena clock is an offical/unoffical time. This was said by Brandon Bates and Flint at an event that I asked them about the arena clock. If you have a problem of definition, take it up with them. Third, the stopwatches are not a just a back up, in case of a scoreboard failure. Any of the judges, if they believe that the rider did not make the 8 seconds, can call for a review. Therefore, your theroy of it only as a back up is not the case.
I have seen riders not hit the button when it was 7.8 and 7.9. You say that the $500 has nothing to do with it? Why is it that a rider, that has more money will hit a challenge button at 7.7, 7.6 or even 7.5. The $500 is there to keep some from pushing the button at will, however, it will also stop guys from pushing it, because they just can't afford to lose the $500. Some of these guys are barely making it from week to week. They have to get plane tickets at a moments notice, and as Pistol Robinson said, he had to charge the $700 plane ticket, because he didn't have the money. The PBR gives them some money, but not enough to cover their expenses.
Regarding the Hyper-Mo. I know some people in the production crew and they didn't know why the Hyper-Mo was not being used. Why didn't the PBR just say that it was ONLY used for the one event? What is the problem in simply telling the fans, and maybe some of the PBR people, that they are working on getting it in sometime later? What is wrong with that?
Yes, the PBR puts out the best show, with the better technology than the others. With that said, is there no room for improvement? I would not spend the money, time and effort, to go to multiple events, the finals and start a PBR blog, if I did not believe in the product. However, the PBR, in my opinion, needs to look at better technology, when it comes to timing a ride. Sorry you disagree.
By the way Todd, I noticed you did not address the main issue of what I blogged about. The fact that the stopwatch system, due to human reaction time, is not accurate and when you are talking about hundredths of seconds, it can cause a rider money.
ReplyDeleteJust noticed the swimming timer comparison, thought I read the article through, sorry. The board that controls the clock in the PBR is actually the brand that is used in many timed sporting events, Daktronics. Not sure how they start a race in swimming or track, but you still have to have a start and stop mechanism.
ReplyDeleteThe clock in the PBR is started with a plunger type switch, similar to the button on top of a stopwatch. You see the judges behind the chutes holding them, it's got the black cable running out of it. Push the button to start, then hit it again to stop. Same as the stopwatches.
So, how to start the clock and take the human factor out? Short of putting a Laser beam to cover the entire plane of the chute you wouldn't be able to start the clock more accurately than with a human being. (I hate to be a nit picker but it is spelled plane)
A string wouldn't work because the first part of the bull that crosses the plane could be above or below the string. Also there would be some issues with bulls shying away.
So, we've covered starting the clock. How about stopping it?
Since the clock runs until the rider hits the ground how about a sensor that sends out a signal when the rider hits the ground? In swimming I do know the clock stops for the individual lane when the swimmer hits a sensor on the wall.
Since the bull will be bucking you can't use a pressure sensor like in swimming, you'd need a Radio Frequency sensor set to stop the clock when the rider is within say 1" of the ground. Lets say you put that sensor in the rider's pants, well he landed on his head so the clock is still running. His pants and his head you say? Ok, no problem, now he lands but his hand comes in contact with the ground first. To do this type of automatic timing you would need to cover every rider in RF transmitters all within 1" of each other to make sure you kept things fair. And all this covers is the rider.
Lets talk Arenas. You would have to have a grid of antenna wires that would receive the signals of the transmitter covered rider. This grid needs to be the size of the ENTIRE dirt floor, which is usually just a little smaller than a hockey rink.
That's a 150'x 85'net of sensor wire. (-50' for the fan zone)
The dirt in the arena is sometimes 8" thick with different consistencies. I suppose you could put the net below this and somehow turn up the sensitivity but I'm thinking there would be issues with breakage due to bulls hooves sinking through the sandier soils. And if you do have a problem with the net, how do you know where the problem is since it's now buried below 8" of dirt. Oh and if the dirt gets stomped down in some areas you'd have to groom it after every ride to make it fair for all the riders.
I suppose we could go with the lasers, but you'd have to have Emitters and Receivers set up on all the chutes, lets say spaced top to bottom every 2 inches. That way even the narrowest horn tip would start the clock. Not sure of the exact height of each gate lets say around 8' or 96". So we'd need 48 sensor/emitter pairs for each chute x 6 chutes that's 288 pairs. Cheapest novelty spy tripwires are 20$ each set, so $5760.00 without shipping. This does not include wiring by the way. It also does not include the programming or the development time it would take to create something that would be safe and accurate.
So just to create the Laser net to START the clock we could be looking at $50,000-$100,000.
...Continued
I could keep beating this horse, but I hope I've made my point, I didn't even get into keeping things like the sensitive optics clean around dirty/dusty arenas, or around the bulls rear ends which believe it or not aren't all that beneficial to optics. Just ask the camera men who are nowhere near the back end of the bull how often they get a mouthful or get it on their lenses.
ReplyDeleteHope some of this helps. Getting the info sorted out ahead of time by interviewing the people involved in the timing and scoring would probably help too. No sarcasm intended, but that would allow you to state facts instead of opinions.
K, point by point on your response. I realize this could get long since you'll have a rebuttal to the previous term paper I just wrote.. 8)
ReplyDelete1)Theory of the stopwatch as backup: The individual judge stopwatches are not official, they are aids to the side judges who do not have direct view of the clock during the ride. The back judges can start/stop the Official clock with their plungers.
The replay judge's stopwatch is actually even MORE accurate than the Official clock or the side judge stopwatches... why? Because he starts his replay by watching a slow motion of the ride, if the challenge is for time, he watches to see what part of the bull broke the plane and also when the rider released his rope on the way down, or if the rider held the rope all the way down he knows to stop the watch when the ground is contacted. (Right there is part of where the time discrepancy comes from. Where did he release the rope?) After the slo-mo replay the judge uses his reference points to start and stop the watch in real time with his thumb. Oh and the replay's you see in the arena or on TV are not necessarily what he's watching. He has the entire replay room of the TV Truck to pick from. (next point to follow)
2) the $500 question:
ReplyDeleteOk, due to punctuation it looked like I meant none of the riders cared about the 500 "If a rider thinks he made the 8 he hits it. The $500 makes no difference to them." Change that to "If a rider thinks he made the 8 he hits it, the $500 makes no difference to them." Because after all, he KNOWS he made the 8.
I agree the 500 does discourage people, that's why it's there. But if a rider truly believes he made it. It's not going to stop him.
The Hyper-Mo:
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing that by production crew you mean the live event production, and not the television crew. Not sure who you talked to but it was very well known to everyone in the TV truck what was going on. Even the guys on the floor that I hang out with knew, most didn't care, so maybe it just wasn't passed around the gossip mill. Also, during the broadcast Craig Hummer and Justin McKee talked quite a few times about the Hyper-Mo and the possibility of it coming back for 2011. I don't know what they talk about on the floor during the show as I'm in the truck outside the arena usually. Don't forget that budgets are done a year in advance and requests have to be put in for the extra funds for new items.
Hmmm, I suppose people also don't realize that the Live Event production crew is completely different from the Television crew and they usually don't have much contact. I'm different, I go between both TV and Floor shows.
Todd, thanks for giving this much information to me. Maybe you should call into the PBRNow show and tell Justin McBride and JW Hart that they don't have a clue as to what is going on in the timing of the events that they comment on. Both have repeatedly said they don't know why the rides can not be timed more accurate. I believe JW is on the board of the PBR. Maybe someone needs to tell KRC or Brett to write an article on this, because they don't seem to know this. I would be more than happy to interview someone of knowledge, but since I don't have a press pass, I can't do this at an event, I have tried. Maybe someone needs to tell Ty or someone with the PBR to enlighten their fans and the riders. Many of the riders don't know what part of the bull, that breaks the plane, starts the clock. That question has been asked and there were different answers. So, maybe I am not so unimformed or I guess I am just as unimformed as many of the fans, PBR brass and the riders themselves.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if you care to read any of the other PBR blogs that are out there, mine is the most accurate of any. I don't see you raging on them, or is it just me?
I have written many blogs before this one, do you have a problem with any of those? Was I inaccurate in those? Did I have my facts straight? Your rendition of the many stupid things that could be done, was not my main point, the digital feed and the digital timer on the screen was. That was my solution. Of course, I am sure that was wrong as well. I have mentioned it to several people at the PBR and they don't know why it can't work.
Better Tech for timing a ride: The PBR is always looking for ways to be more accurate, never said they weren't 8). Unfortunately when you're dealing with something as unpredictable as a Bull and Rider combo, you NEED that human factor to start and stop a clock. Trust me, if you come up with an idea that would allow for more accurate foolproof methods of starting and stopping that clock I'm sure the PBR would buy it off you.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, are you anonymous_bull on the PBR comment section?
ReplyDeleteHoly CRAP, I was confused by your comment with "digital" in it and realized I completely passed over that section in you blog. Now I realize why you got so defensive about my ramblings about lasers. Ok, I apologize when I'm in the wrong. You do have my sincere apologies for the way this has come off. My previous statements were all predicated on me assuming I read the entire Blog and seeing a statement "Timing is Broken" without a fix. I was sarcastic in my responses for this reason. I do actually AGREE with you on using digital timecode for the accurate timing of the ride.
ReplyDelete"By the way, are you anonymous_bull on the PBR comment section?"
ReplyDelete-Affirmative, I tend to get a bit ornery on there sometimes too 8)
The digital timing thing....now you've given me an IDEA. Diging through the interwebs.....
ReplyDeleteI'm out, hope there's no hard feelings. Sent you a friend request on Facebook. Thinking about the whole digital replay angle........
ReplyDeleteWOW, through all the bickering between us, we can maybe agree. lol
ReplyDeleteJust to give you some insight into the PBR comment section. I listed my blog, but never ask people to leave a comment on the PBR comment section about the blog. As a matter of fact, I want them to comment on the blog. However, because you have to sign up and use a different account, some just don't feel comfortable doing that, and they will leave a comment on the PBR comment section instead. If you will notice, I did not respond to them. Am I promoting myself and my blog? Yes. However, it is completely within the PBR rules and I asked the PBR for permission to advertise my blog, and I know many others have not. I will attend 8 BFTS events this year and the finals, as well as 5-7 Touring Pro events. This does not make me an expert, but I do know somethings and I am not afraid to ask. Maybe, you can give me a tour of the TV truck? lol
My posts on the Pbr blog were to get the others to stop posting there. Because honestly the powers that be could easily shut down your ability to post addresses in the comments section. I'd be happy to bring you in the truck and introduce you around. Maybe sit in during the show's production. I'd have to ask the muckity mucks though. What's the next event you're coming to?
ReplyDeleteWe are going to Tulsa, San Antonio and Springfield.
ReplyDeleteWhen Tulsa gets closer I'll drop you a line on FB. We'll set something up.
ReplyDelete